Abortion

[Firestorm]

Scenario #1
Girl: I'm pregnant.
Boy: What? You're pregnant? No no no. You have to abort it. I don't want it.

Scenario #2
Girl: Dad, I'm pregnant.
Dad: What? What did you do? It's an embarrassment to the family! You have to abort it!

Scenario #3
Doctor: Miss, I'm sorry to say, you are pregnant.
Girl: No...this can't be happening to me. First the rape and now this!!

Scenario #4
Woman: Honey, I'm pregnant!
Man: What? We didn't plan this! We can't afford to have a baby. Let's abort.

Scenario #5 (By Solstis)
Doctor: Miss, you are pregnant.
Girl: What?! I thought I couldn't get pregnant because of my illness
Doctor: Yes, it was a slim chance........ but carring a child, you might not make it, you might both lose your lives.

Those are some of the scenarios in our everyday life that can lead to abortion. Unplanned or unwanted pregnancy and in the end the girl or couple opt for abortion.

Is it right to abort? Is it legal? There are some countries that legalise abortion with no exception, some legalise under certain circumstances, some illegalise it with no exception. That's the law.

What about morally speaking. Is it moral enough to abort? Doesn't the child have the right to be alive?

Share your thoughts and opinions regarding this issue.

[mamatz]

Hmm... In my country, it is legal to do so but under certain circumstances. In my oponion, it's unwise for those who want to do the abortion because the child is innocent and deserve to have a life... It's too unfair for the child to be abort without knowing the outer evil world that we live right now... The world is too cruel and the humanity has gone nuts nowadays... Why the innocent child has to suffer because of the horrible doing of an irresponsible human???

[Solstis]

This is quiet the controversial subject but I'm really curious to know other views too but mine is, in a nutshell

DON'T MAKE UP PEOPLES MINDS FOR THEM!!
Or impose your views on them. unless you are going to take care of the child after it's born to a parent that doesn't want it.

I'm proudly pro-choice. and wonder why no-one seems to be concerned about stoping the issue before it starts by making contraceptives readily available to everyone. and I don't mean just putting them in stores I mean making it free.If people weren't getting pregnant left and right to start with, this would be less of an issue. not to say I won't point out some people are just too lazy to use the contraception.

but no one has the right to chose for another person. worry about the kids who are already alive and need help . As long as it's legal people who want/or need to do it can. and people who are against it can tell people theres 'another way' yeah like adoption... tell that to the thousands of children still waiting for a loving family (in the US ) or they need food or they need healthcare, what about them, they have rights too correct? I really think they need our help more than the rights of an un-born.

I don't know how accrate this is but I'm just trying to make a point. yeah so theres like 1 million abotions in the US every year for any reason. but take a look at this site on the flip side of the living http://www.orphanage.org/ and that is all over the world and I'm sure that's not even all of them

Is it 'right' is it 'moral' that depends who you ask... remember some people believe it's ok to poision baby forumla (this was a while ago) some people believe no one should hget a divorce even if a spouse is being abused. Because here (I mean in the USA ) there are far too many religions so it's too had to say yes or no to that without stepping on someones believes.

I believe the most 'right' and 'moral' thing you can do is give people proper information and then let them make up their own mind. Leaving people with only once choice is takeing away their freedoms and backs them into a corner. Just like in some counties girls can not go to school. Something as simple as education was taken . Just like some people think eating meat is bad, what if that became law.

SOME types of abortion I think are out of line ... partial birth ones disturb me . because if you carried it that long already whats another month or two or so, really.

Hey Firestorm I have one more scenerio for you.

Scenario #5
Doctor: Miss, you are pregnant.
Girl: What?! I thought I couldn't get pregnant because of my illness
Doctor: Yes, it was a slim chance........ but carring a child, you might not make it, you might both lose your lives.

... I have a friend in fact 2 who are like that. they shouldn't be able to have kids but if they did it would probly kill them both.

[rikkublossom]

Solstis, you may just be my new favourite person.

Lets not forget that abortion has always existed. Even in countries where it's illegal, it happens.
You should hear some of the stories abortion clinics have seen. I remember a woman on the TV talking about a girl who wanted an abortion so much she tried to use a knitting needle to do it (not a pleasant image)

I don't see why someone else's religion should effect anyone's choice. If you think it's wrong then don't do it, but there are girls and women out there that put their health in serious jeopardy for an abortion when one isn't legally available.

Backstreet abortion has happened, will happen and will always happen.

I'm not a very sympathetic person really, don't expect me to feel sorry for a woman who didn't use protection and found herself pregnant, it's the 21st century, if you don't want to get pregnant then you don't have to, but limiting a choice does not remove that choice.
(this goes out the window for rape of course or for situations mentioned above)

So yes i think it's should be legal, morally speaking though, that's up to a woman/couples conscious.

[Shadowed Luminous]

No I don't beleive abortion is right, it's never right to murder someone.

Ok so before someone brings up how theese women feel terrible about this ,let me bring up something from our old friends at Planned Parenthood . The reason I bring up this one quote in particular is because this seems like one thing they can't spin their way

You may have a wide range of feelings after your abortion. Most women ultimately feel relief after an abortion. Some women feel anger, regret, guilt, or sadness for a little while.

and I don't mean just putting them in stores I mean making it free

Who would make it ? How are you going to convince a buisness to spend X amount of money on something they will not make money on ? How will you make places carry theese free contraceptives when can they put other things on that shelf space that can make them some money ?

but no one has the right to chose for another person.

Your right, people don't have the right to choose for another person. What makes the potential life any different ? It's living in your body ? After you made it ?

But more to the point of what you were probably going for

Can't prevent evil from happening, they'll just have to live with their foul deed


tell that to the thousands of children still waiting for a loving family (in the US ) or they need food or they need healthcare, what about them, they have rights too correct?

Better to be alive waiting for a family than dead . They'd have a family if their biological parents were'nt so irresponsible

Lets not forget that abortion has always existed. Even in countries where it's illegal, it happens.
You should hear some of the stories abortion clinics have seen. I remember a woman on the TV talking about a girl who wanted an abortion so much she tried to use a knitting needle to do it (not a pleasant image)

Unfortunate

Why should one foolish girl who thought mutilating herself was prefferable to waiting for the baby to be born impact the idea whether abortion is moral or not ? Does a movement have to do something self destructive to make itself seem "valid" ?

I'll give some weight to the idea of the "Mother's life in jeoprady" idea since I have not fully considered all sides of it

[Cromell]

Abortion? Sure... especially when the pregnancy becomes dangerous for the mother. Or when it is the product of rape.

What I am against is using abortion for your own convenience. Geez. Use freaking condoms, medicines, whatever. But don't abort the pregnancy beacause you are afraid of the consequences of your own freaking actions. People should be more responsible...

Also, even if abortion is not allowed in specific countries, people will find a way around. It's not that bad if they simply travel to another country where they can do abortion, but what about those that do it "underground"? In most cases it is dangerous for the mother.

So yeah, allow abortion.

[rikkublossom]

I think this topic is a little vague, asking whether abortion is morally right is an hard question to answer, one persons morals don't equal the morals of those next to you.
It's something you have to answer for yourself.
There are people who believe abortions aren't right, but only after a certain point. There are those who think of life starting at conception and those who believe it's when the child can live on it's own outside the womb.

Whether abortion should be legal is something different, morality and the law should never mix, EVER.
Which makes it a hard thing to comment on, because whether it should be legal always comes into a morality discussion, they're hard things to separate.

What I am against is using abortion for your own convenience.

Yes. I think there should be a legal limit on how many abortions a woman can have.
1 is unfortunate.
2 is very unlucky.
3 is out of the question.

3 is proof you're using abortion as contraceptive. Abortion should always be the final choice, when nothing else can work out. Having one after another is out of the question.

Why should one foolish girl who thought mutilating herself was prefferable to waiting for the baby to be born impact the idea whether abortion is moral or not ? Does a movement have to do something self destructive to make itself seem "valid" ?

I appreciate your opinion but choosing the safety of an unwanted baby that will get aborted one way or the other, above the health of not one, but millions of foolish girls around the world, is out of the question for me.

Saying abortion isn't morally right wont make it go away. Making it legal and over seeing the safety of the woman involved is, believe it or not, the only way to save lives.
If a person is determined then the child will not be born, is it better for the child to die, or mother AND child.

[Shadowed Luminous]

I think this topic is a little vague, asking whether abortion is morally right is an hard question to answer, one persons morals don't equal the morals of those next to you.
It's something you have to answer for yourself.
There are people who believe abortions aren't right, but only after a certain point. There are those who think of life starting at conception and those who believe it's when the child can live on it's own outside the womb.

Whether abortion should be legal is something different, morality and the law should never mix, EVER.
Which makes it a hard thing to comment on, because whether it should be legal always comes into a morality discussion, they're hard things to separate.



Yes. I think there should be a legal limit on how many abortions a woman can have.
1 is unfortunate.
2 is very unlucky.
3 is out of the question.

3 is proof you're using abortion as contraceptive. Abortion should always be the final choice, when nothing else can work out. Having one after another is out of the question.



I appreciate your opinion but choosing the safety of an unwanted baby that will get aborted one way or the other, above the health of not one, but millions of foolish girls around the world, is out of the question for me.

Saying abortion isn't morally right wont make it go away. Making it legal and over seeing the safety of the woman involved is, believe it or not, the only way to save lives.
If a person is determined then the child will not be born, is it better for the child to die, or mother AND child.

Oh so she's determined. One would lock up any other criminal, regardless of how committed they are to their crime. If a woman is so mentaly unstable they should probably lock her away. If her mind can't handle the consequences of her actions than she is not fit to live amongst society. Not to mention it's proably for her own good anyway, seeing as one thing can send her off into a self-destructive fit. Make it legal and kill your problems is not the way to go. (Yeah, not the best debate point on that last part , but it's equal to your "Making it legal is the only way" comment) . Mentally deranged people don't have the right to bring the hangsmans noose around something they helped create.

A committed evil-doer is still and evil-doer

[rikkublossom]

Oh so she's determined. One would lock up any other criminal, regardless of how committed they are to their crime. If a woman is so mentaly unstable they should probably lock her away. If her mind can't handle the consequences of her actions than she is not fit to live amongst society. Not to mention it's proably for her own good anyway, seeing as one thing can send her off into a self-destructive fit. Make it legal and kill your problems is not the way to go. (Yeah, not the best debate point on that last part , but it's equal to your "Making it legal is the only way" comment) . Mentally deranged people don't have the right to bring the hangsmans noose around something they helped create.

A committed evil-doer is still and evil-doer

Wow. I don't want to get into an argument here but.........that may be the dumbest thing I've ever read.

Not all women find themselves pregnant by their actions, and having an abortion doesn't make you mentally unstable.
You know what, if people don't think they're morally right, then they shouldn't have one.

Imagine finding yourself pregnant with no money, no partner, no way to look after a baby.
You get desperate, you're in a situation you can't get out of and you do dumb things like go to a backstreet abortionist.
People do it all the time for other crimes, hungry? steal some food. Need to find a new winter coat or freeze to death, rob someone.
All pretty desperate situations, would you hang them for it.

And overly religious places just make it worse, find yourself pregnant outside of marriage and you could be risking your life, unless you're saying women can't have sex now. That's a way to stop abortions, if no woman ever had sex.

Like i said, don't like abortions, don't have one.
Some people believe eating meat is murder, they believe that animals deserves the right to live, they put that animals life in line with a humans, should we make everyone vegetarians, force the majority to believe in what the minority want.

[Shadowed Luminous]

Wow. I don't want to get into an argument here but.........that may be the dumbest thing I've ever read.

Not all women find themselves pregnant by their actions, and having an abortion doesn't make you mentally unstable.
You know what, if people don't think they're morally right, then they shouldn't have one.

Imagine finding yourself pregnant with no money, no partner, no way to look after a baby.
You get desperate, you're in a situation you can't get out of and you do dumb things like go to a backstreet abortionist.
People do it all the time for other crimes, hungry? steal some food. Need to find a new winter coat or freeze to death, rob someone.
All pretty desperate situations, would you hang them for it.

And overly religious places just make it worse, find yourself pregnant outside of marriage and you could be risking your life, unless you're saying women can't have sex now. That's a way to stop abortions, if no woman ever had sex.

Like i said, don't like abortions, don't have one.
Some people believe eating meat is murder, they believe that animals deserves the right to live, they put that animals life in line with a humans, should we make everyone vegetarians, force the majority to believe in what the minority want.

No having an abortion does not make you mentally unstable , mutilating yourself when you can not have one does. (As you said earlier) Not all women find themselves pregnant by their actions, but I don't think that abortionees have a larger percentage of those who did not have the baby by their own action (Rape, can't think of many more right now) to those who did.

Stealing a coat or a loaf of bread is not paramount to bodily mutilation. Animals are not comparable to human life either (And frankly it astounds me that you would make the comparison )

Don't like having babies in a bad situation ? Don't have sex in a bad situation (Of course excluding rape, that's another jar of pickles entirely)

[Solstis]

OMG It's soooo long sorry >_<;;; I guess I got carried away

there are still other reasons seeing as condoms break and there is no contraceptive that is 100% fool proof aside from nothaving sex >_< but yeah good luck stopping people from having sex SO since thats not really going to happen any time soon...

About making it free I was just putting the idea out there... it's one of those things where theres to many ways to mess it up or, for it to be taken advantage of to spell it out here. People are greedy but stop the problem where it starts. At some point it has to stop being about making money. if you honestly want to help someone you wouldn't be worried about profit... it falls in the 'gee that would be nice' category If I had money to toss around I'd do it


as for the quote from planned parenthood it says MOST PEOPLE may feel that way. NOT ALL. seeing as some use it as a form of birth control ._. they obviously don't care either way. you can't use 'people might get sad'' as a reason to make it illegal if it works like that war should be illegal too


Now that I think about it some people believe that contraception is 'evil' and 'wrong' but in some cases those are the ones getting abortions ._. or they have 8 or 9 kids ._. I like the way Cromell put it "abortion for your own convenience"

it's only your personal morals that tell you 'this is murder' but since it's not the same for everyone who are you to stop me just because [I]you [/I don't like it?
-- like people who get a boob job (ew crude slang T_T ) I don't agree with that; and most types of cosmetic surgical augmentation . I think that that should be illegal because I believe people should just accept themselves the way they are. (actually I don't think it should really be illegal) but that' an example of my morals getting in the way of people who think having size DD saline balloons tacked on their chest makes them more beautiful . however I might try to convince my friends against it. I would still stand by their side if they did it anyway.

how about something off the subject a bit. What about people with cancer? Should you stop them from getting the treatment to help them live just because you don't agree with where it came from?

random point. A real murder who has not gotten the death penalty(or any other criminal for that matter ) lives the rest of his/her life in comfort. free health care, 3 meals a day, a roof over their head, education, and on top of that they don't even have to work. (that's better than an orphan who happens to be living on the street, but at least they are alive right )

Separation of church and state - you have to leave morals out of law that effects everyone equally without regard to their religion or morals

I have friends who have kids 3 friends 5 (perhaps 6 now ) kids total. When they told me they were pregnant, I was shocked. But even though They were really in no position to raise a child at the time (no job, living at home, the father was estranged ) They still had the child. Even though I fully believe in abortion as an option I didin't force the idea or even mention it to them. because they made up their own mind. I just would have taken a different road in that situation and that's ok.

ok... last point and I mean no offense to believers by saying this so please take the following comment with salt

[If] God has a path set for you. and if you are meant to do something or have or not have something, then it will happen.
if all that is true then if a person is not meant to have an abortion then many things will get in their way to prevent it. and if they are meant to then things will go smoothly.
-----

In the end you have to live with your choice no matter what it is. you might regret it if you do it... and you might regret it if you don't; it goes both ways. and I think that neither way is wrong. having an abortion isn't wrong and keeping it irregardless of the situation isn't wrong either.

The only thing wrong is being ill informed and not knowing all the facts before makeing a choice. This is just a thing where NO answer guarantees a perfect happy ending

-----
OMG I did a tiny bit of searching and found that " The estimated cost of delivery alone is $6,000 – $8,000 for a normal pregnancy " O_.; thats easily more than I make in 6 months http://www.americanpregnancy.org/planningandpreparing/affordablehealthcare.html this site is really informative BTW





Here is another spin on it directly from an anime called Mononoke. episodes 1 and 2 I will warn you it's disturbing to watch in the second part (ep 2) but it is a good example of the other side (the pro life side) the short version is this girl is with child and wants to have it no matter what even tho the father has abandonded her (she was the servent) in this story the owners of the inn she stays at want to kill the child (she's like 9 mos along BTW) Also the inn used to be a brothel and many many spirit of aborted infants reside there and they 'just want to be born'

yes it's sad and unfortunate that in a world where so much is possible that we as people find ourselfs in positions where we can't save or even protect every child. If we could provide that there would be less of a need to have an abortion. maybe if getting pregnant out of wedlock weren't seen as a 'sin' if communities were closer knit, if the men took responsibility more often if people didn't disown their family because of it, if everyone had the financial means, if everyone had the moral support.

I would like to see someone state their pro-life oppion without using loaded words like 'mutilation' of course using that word will make it sound bad some people think getting a tattoo is mutilation as well so it's all a matter of prospective that interferes with actual information.

[rikkublossom]

Stealing a coat or a loaf of bread is not paramount to bodily mutilation. Animals are not comparable to human life either (And frankly it astounds me that you would make the comparison )
Don't like having babies in a bad situation ? Don't have sex in a bad situation (Of course excluding rape, that's another jar of pickles entirely)

Sorry, i thought it was obvious. It's not about body mutilation, it's about desperate actions in desperate situations.
These women are desperate not to be pregnant any more, same as someone longing for food or warmth, they do things that aren't smart to get them out of that situation.
They try to abort the pregnancy, with not just this but a whole host of other things they may have heard of, from the weird (it was once thought a scolding hot bath and a bottle of Gin? i think it was, would bring on a miscarriage) to the damn right dangerous (Drinking turpentine, bleach or tea made with livestock manure. Inserting herbal preparations into the vagina or cervix. Placing foreign bodies, such as a stick, coat hanger or chicken bone, into the uterus. Jumping from the top of stairs or a roof)

Do you think that telling people that abortion is murder, that they shouldn't have sex or always use protection, that making it illegal will stop abortions happening?
This has some statistics about abortion worldwide.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_IAW.html

And don't have sex in a bad situation???
Why should a woman choose abstinence just because she's not in a relationship with a man who's mature enough to stay, or married or has a decent job.
It's funny how blame seems to avoid men in these sorts of debates.
They should use protection, yes, and some people do. But it's been said already, protection is not 100% and in some countries is expensive (if not illegal)

And in developing countries married women have abortions too. Imagine abortions being illegal, contraceptives hard to come by and you and your husband already have 5 or 6 kids that your meagre wage can't feed, educate and clothe. How do you stop yourself becoming pregnant again? how do you afford this child?
Or perhaps they shouldn't be having sex in this bad situation. Wife turns to husband, "sorry love, not tonight, maybe after menopause, you can wait that long right?"

The animal thing is correct if you look at it from someone else perspective and not your own.
You put a high value on human life, do you think it starts when you are nothing more then a bundle of cells? a time when it's possible to miscarry and never even know you were pregnant (women have been known to assume it's just their period)

Think like someone who believes animal life is as important as human. Think of them not as being comparable to human life but as being on the same level.
Some people think this way, they protest about animal testing, they protest about the meat industry.
But should people stop eating meat because a few think with all their soul that it's murder.

If you think that life starts right away, that abortion is murder then should that mean this minority view (and in my country it is a minority) inflict upon the morals of everyone.

Why don't we hear some views on what can be done instead of abortion then. There's always adoption i suppose, always a good thing for a child to be underfeed and left abandoned in poor countries, or even mistreated in places where orphans have been known to be tried to beds and left there.
But of course there will be no orphans because of the estimated 41 million induced abortions in 2008, all 41 million would have been given to loving homes who could feed and look after these poor murdered children.

[Shadowed Luminous]

Sorry, i thought it was obvious. It's not about body mutilation, it's about desperate actions in desperate situations.
These women are desperate not to be pregnant any more, same as someone longing for food or warmth, they do things that aren't smart to get them out of that situation.
They try to abort the pregnancy, with not just this but a whole host of other things they may have heard of, from the weird (it was once thought a scolding hot bath and a bottle of Gin? i think it was, would bring on a miscarriage) to the damn right dangerous (Drinking turpentine, bleach or tea made with livestock manure. Inserting herbal preparations into the vagina or cervix. Placing foreign bodies, such as a stick, coat hanger or chicken bone, into the uterus. Jumping from the top of stairs or a roof)

Except in your situation , instead of taking something that does not belong to them, they try to damage their bodies in some horrible way because they can't handle the consequences of their actions.


Do you think that telling people that abortion is murder, that they shouldn't have sex or always use protection, that making it illegal will stop abortions happening?
This has some statistics about abortion worldwide.

No I don't think it will stop from that

People try to dissuade theives from stealing, they continue, people try to stop a murderer from killing others, they kill anyway. Treat them like criminals and put some form of penalty on their crime


And don't have sex in a bad situation???
Why should a woman choose abstinence just because she's not in a relationship with a man who's mature enough to stay, or married or has a decent job.
It's funny how blame seems to avoid men in these sorts of debates.
They should use protection, yes, and some people do. But it's been said already, protection is not 100% and in some countries is expensive (if not illegal)

Maybe the woman should be responsible enough to figure out that she will have to live with the consequences of having sex. Did someone skip the class in school that tells us that women are the ones to get pregnant?

And who says men escape the blame ? Yeah, they're terrible people. But Men can't get pregnant though, they also can't abort their non-existent baby growing in their bodies. Women however can get pregnant and they've known the dynamics of it for a while. A man's only consequence in this instance is one to his honor, a woman however has the added benefit of an extra passenger. Kid's can't figure out that their actions have consequence, why can't theese women seem to understand that either and just say no ?

Why should a woman choose abstinence in your situation ? Why should I care about her petty little emotions when she comes whining to the nearest abortion clinic on how "she's not prepared for this baby" I doubt that she was fine about halfway through the deed when her life went down the toilet



How do you stop yourself becoming pregnant again? how do you afford this child?
Or perhaps they shouldn't be having sex in this bad situation. Wife turns to husband, "sorry love, not tonight, maybe after menopause, you can wait that long right?"

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm296/macrosgalore/roflbot-IVeB.jpg

Yes, If they're really so darn worried about their financial situation and how they can't afford another child. Get the heck over it, it's not like they are going to die because they can't have relations daily. (Menopause ? How about they wait till they improve their financial situation? You know your just being foolish and blowing the situation way out of proportion .)


Why don't we hear some views on what can be done instead of abortion then. There's always adoption i suppose, always a good thing for a child to be underfeed and left abandoned in poor countries, or even mistreated in places where orphans have been known to be tried to beds and left there.
But of course there will be no orphans because of the estimated 41 million induced abortions in 2008, all 41 million would have been given to loving homes who could feed and look after these poor murdered children.

Best to decide what they're future (Or lackthereof) is going to be and finish them off now huh ? Who else should die because they might have a rough spot of luck in the future ?

I would like to see someone state their pro-life oppion without using loaded words like 'mutilation' of course using that word will make it sound bad some people think getting a tattoo is mutilation as well so it's all a matter of prospective that interferes with actual information.

Mutilation such as the following

I remember a woman on the TV talking about a girl who wanted an abortion so much she tried to use a knitting needle to do it (not a pleasant image)

and theese

to the damn right dangerous (Drinking turpentine, bleach or tea made with livestock manure. Inserting herbal preparations into the vagina or cervix. Placing foreign bodies, such as a stick, coat hanger or chicken bone, into the uterus. Jumping from the top of stairs or a roof)

If you could find a better word to describe shoving strange objects into your vagina or trying to do a procedure like an abortion with no prior medical knowledge ( Except if she's a doctor) using a knitting needle I would like to know it

Don't like abortion ? Don't have one
Don't like murder ? Don't do one
Don't like assault ? Don't do it

Out of all the situations firestrom provided, the rape one is the only one that the girl did not have fault in

[donnymaniac]

Hm.
You have sex, you have fun etc, and then when you end up pregnant, you wanna go kill the child in you for absolutely no reason, just because hes an outcome of your irresponsibility and immatureness. You think this is a joke? Killing some one is never a joke, even when the child is still in his mother's womb, he/she deserves to live just as much as you do.
I am against abortions, but there are exceptions,
1- The mums life might be in danger because of it.
2- An outcome of rape (I do not know where i stand on this, a part of me says its okay and another totally forbids it)
Other than that I say you be responsible for what you did.

[Shadowed Luminous]

there are still other reasons seeing as condoms break and there is no contraceptive that is 100% fool proof aside from nothaving sex >_< but yeah good luck stopping people from having sex SO since thats not really going to happen any time soon...

That does not make the practice less valid. If they want to be stupid and have a baby, they can and should suffer

People are greedy but stop the problem where it starts. At some point it has to stop being about making money. if you honestly want to help someone you wouldn't be worried about profit... it falls in the 'gee that would be nice' category If I had money to toss around I'd do it

Why should it stop being about money ?

Even if they coasted around on enough money to pay the workers, gather appropriate materials, keep all neccesary equipment in order as well as the billions of other things needed to keep an organization running, they would still be wasting their time on something that has no personal benefit.

as for the quote from planned parenthood it says MOST PEOPLE may feel that way. NOT ALL. seeing as some use it as a form of birth control ._. they obviously don't care either way. you can't use 'people might get sad'' as a reason to make it illegal if it works like that war should be illegal too

Most, as in 51% -99.9%. Most women who have an abortion are not sad that their situation has led them to kill something, they are releived.



it's only your personal morals that tell you 'this is murder' but since it's not the same for everyone who are you to stop me just because [I]you [/I don't like it?
-- like people who get a boob job (ew crude slang T_T )

It's a human being (Or potential human being) inside you , that you helped create

Who are you to kill it ?

Since when is killing a human not murder ?




I don't agree with that; and most types of cosmetic surgical augmentation . I think that that should be illegal because I believe people should just accept themselves the way they are. (actually I don't think it should really be illegal) but that' an example of my morals getting in the way of people who think having size DD saline balloons tacked on their chest makes them more beautiful . however I might try to convince my friends against it. I would still stand by their side if they did it anyway.

Personal body image does not relate to killing something

how about something off the subject a bit. What about people with cancer? Should you stop them from getting the treatment to help them live just because you don't agree with where it came from?

Your point in relation to abortion ?

random point. A real murder who has not gotten the death penalty(or any other criminal for that matter ) lives the rest of his/her life in comfort. free health care, 3 meals a day, a roof over their head, education, and on top of that they don't even have to work. (that's better than an orphan who happens to be living on the street, but at least they are alive right )

So what exactly ? Something's wrong in the world so that makes your arguement valid ? (And no, not all orphans live on the street. Killing something because you beleive their life will be rough is not an adequate reason to kill them early)

Separation of church and state - you have to leave morals out of law that effects everyone equally without regard to their religion or morals

Don't try to peg me as someone arguing from a religous standpoint. I don't have to beleive in a deity to beleive killing a human organism is wrong.


[If] God has a path set for you. and if you are meant to do something or have or not have something, then it will happen.
if all that is true then if a person is not meant to have an abortion then many things will get in their way to prevent it. and if they are meant to then things will go smoothly.

Your bringing religion into this after pulling "Seperation of church and state" ?

[Sylvie]

I'm all for abortion. My girlfriend and I are set on that if she accidentally gets pregnant, we're aborting it as fast as possible. We don't believe in procreation. The last thing this world needs is more people infesting its purulent, harvested nexus.

[Cromell]

I'm all for abortion. My girlfriend and I are set on that if she accidentally gets pregnant, we're aborting it as fast as possible. We don't believe in procreation. The last thing this world needs is more people infesting its purulent, harvested nexus.

That kind of thinking will get us extinct, you know? Our societies are gradually getting older and older. There are way less children in schools than 15 years ago. Our lifespan is longer thanks to advance in medicine. Add it up and you'll see there will be hardly anyone to work for our retirement. Maybe you don't plan to live this long but I'd like to have something I can live off after I retire...

Almost whole Europe is like this, USA, Japan, even China - we are all facing the same kind of problem.

The question is: what we should do about it?

We already came to conclusion that total ban of abortion is not the best way out.

Many countries try to encourage young couples to have children with various methods. Mostly financial. But still we are more interested in aquiring success in our jobs rather than in our family life. I'm not gonna condemn it, I have no right to do so, while everyone has the right to pursue their own goals. What I want to do is to indicate the problem itself, a problem that is steadily growing somewhere out there. It might not "pay off" in our generation, not even in a generation to follow - but surely WILL someday.

[Cromell]

No offense, but I hope there aren't too many people like you XD

[Sylvie]

I wish there were more people like me. The last thing people need is children. The last thing other people need is more people. I'm ready for the world to collapse in and of itself. I know if I had a child in me whom I didn't want, I would get rid of it before it became a small munchkin toddling his bigwheeler around in a red t-shirt, screaming and pissing everybody off.

[Cromell]

Weeell, that's some attitude you have here. Unfortunately we will not be able to reach anywhere near an agreement here. Our opinions are just way too different.

I am truly sorry that you want everything to selfdestruct, it must be sad to think like that.
I am also sorry to say that I believe such a way of thinking to be weak, but I respect that you live up to your opinions. It's always better than hypocricy.

[Sylvie]

I am truly sorry that you want everything to selfdestruct, it must be sad to think like that.
No, it's not sad to think like that. I'm quite happy with it.

I am also sorry to say that I believe such a way of thinking to be weak, but I respect that you live up to your opinions. It's always better than hypocricy.
Weak? I think it's pretty strong-willed, considering how damn easy it is to get knocked up to your eyeballs and pop out little shmucks in a medical alcove. I'd like everything to fall apart because maybe the earth will last a little longer. I don't believe in making more children so that they can grow up to be components of our entirely flawed society. I'd like everything to die and reset itself. I don't want to raise a child in this world, it's not worth it to me, and especially not to them.

[Cromell]

Yeah, it's weak - "Screw that, let it all fall apart" is basically what you're saying. But trying to change something and make the world a little better place - "NOOOO, it's too much effort. Let's wait until everything dies. Oh, such a hard decision I made!"

It's easy to emo-quit everything because it's bad and unfair.... >_>

[mamatz]

I wish there were more people like me. The last thing people need is children. The last thing other people need is more people. I'm ready for the world to collapse in and of itself. I know if I had a child in me whom I didn't want, I would get rid of it before it became a small munchkin toddling his bigwheeler around in a red t-shirt, screaming and pissing everybody off.

I can't imagine what will happen if there are more people like you in this world..... Are you calling yourself a human??? Give me a break... You're not a human, you're more like a killing machine that doesn't have any feeling and no mentality to think what's wrong and what's right....

[Sylvie]

Yeah, it's weak - "Screw that, let it all fall apart" is basically what you're saying.
Yes, but that's not weakness. That's the only solution, sadly.

But trying to change something and make the world a little better place - "NOOOO, it's too much effort. Let's wait until everything dies. Oh, such a hard decision I made!"
I'm not sure if you realize how absolutely shattered our world is. The only good possible solution for the earth is to dismantle everything, let all industry die, let all humans who run those industries die, let all the humans who teach people that running industry is productive for the future of the earth die, and watch everyone die. Humans are parasites. They destroy to reap what their curious minds so desire. My philosophy is I don't care anymore. But I'm not bringing one more damn person into the world. It's needless and if I don't want to raise it, I'll expel it from the body its feeding off of.

It's easy to emo-quit everything because it's bad and unfair.... >_>
Not having children =/= quitting. Just not contributing to the needless welfare of human crap.

I can't imagine what will happen if there are more people like you in this world..... Are you calling yourself a human??? Give me a break... You're not a human, you're more like a killing machine that doesn't have any feeling and no mentality to think what's wrong and what's right....
Cry harder. Way to bleed all over the place. Boohoo, I'm a killing machine who doesn't have any feeling or mentality to determine what's wrong or right. Step up on your podium and shoot me.

[Cromell]

Ohh, the sarcasm.

I would be far from calling you a "killing machine" as I, frankly, don't care if you have children or not.

Math does not lie. There are endless possibilities and solutions to such complex problems and "letting it fall apart" is not the only one. That would be soooo short-minded.

And I'm not sure if you realize what the world is, either. You seem to recognize only one side of the coin, the corrupted and evil one. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I also hope that you understand that your viewpoint is a bit extreme at the very least and that's probably why mamatz replied so.. emotionally.

[Sylvie]

Math does not lie. There are endless possibilities and solutions to such complex problems and "letting it fall apart" is not the only one. That would be soooo short-minded.
Math isn't the answer in this situation. Math has little to do with anything at hand with the world's general state of health or abortion.

And I'm not sure if you realize what the world is, either. You seem to recognize only one side of the coin, the corrupted and evil one. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
There's people who think 'cutting down' and riding bikes to work instead of driving is solving something, but the world is already f*cked in over itself. There's no saving it. Everything humans do, whether its in good-thought or not, is in some minuscule way damaging something. Farming is even damaging.

I also hope that you understand that your viewpoint is a bit extreme at the very least and that's probably why mamatz replied so.. emotionally.
I know it's extreme, but this is the debate room. There's no room for leaking medicine balls.

[Cromell]

There's people who think 'cutting down' and riding bikes to work instead of driving is solving something, but the world is already f*cked in over itself. There's no saving it. Everything humans do, whether its in good-thought or not, is in some minuscule way damaging something. Farming is even damaging.



We humans are so arogant. We actually think we can destroy the planet with our puny technology... Guess what, the planet will be there far longer than we will. It will change, ofcourse, it's been changing for billions of years and no one complained so far.

I'll be honest, I don't like what you're saying. Not even a bit. But thank God it's a debate room, I don't have to like anything.

[Sylvie]

We humans are so arogant. We actually think we can destroy the planet with our puny technology... Guess what, the planet will be there far longer than we will. It will change, ofcourse, it's been changing for billions of years and no one complained so far.
I want you to take a look at what you just said. If you want to call thousands - probably millions - of factories all over the world emitting smog that directly deteriorates the atmosphere layers "puny attempts", you have no idea what you are talking about. All it takes is the destruction of those layers, and people will die like flies. And if you think nobody's complained about this, take a look around. The collective destruction of these things, in which virtually everybody in the world is taking part in, is most certainly highly destructive to our world.

[Cromell]

I never told we are unable to destroy ourselves. I merely stated that the planet will remain with or without us... and no one ever complained that Earth's ecosystem is a highly dynamic and self-sustaining "machine"... life always finds its way. Even if humans and several thousands of other species die in the progress. Learn 2 read pls?



Anyway, we're getting too offtopic with this discussion.

Still I can't get rid of the feeling that you simply do not want to see any good side of humanity, or the world whatsoever...

[Logan]

There is always one thing that is commonly seen in these kinds of debates.

Abortion = murder.

But it's a mistaken concept. Taken from Wiki:

Murder, as defined in common law countries, is the unlawful killing of another human being with "malice aforethought", and generally this state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide (such as manslaughter).


Key things to always note:

Unlawful killing, human being, malice aforethought.

Those 3 things are required for something to be considered murder.

Unlawful killing is usually unlawful use of excessive force or means that leads to death.
A human being is just that.
Malice aforethought is having the intention to cause the death, or to cause serious harm, to something or someone.

So, the 3rd part is always going to be present in abortion cases, simply because it requires you to actively make the decision to destroy the developing embryo/foetus. Unlawful killing is somewhat there, so we can assume that to always be true as well.

However, the real problem with whether abortion is legally and morally wrong is found in the 2nd part: human being, i.e. something that is living.

Some people believe that a being is a living human being at the first instance, and some have different ideas.

Legally, in most common law countries, it's not a living being until birth. So you can never be tried for murder of a foetus unless the death happened after birth. For example, a woman gets stabbed and the foetus receives a small injury that doesn't cause any immediate problem. If the child then dies, after birth, as a result of this injury, the person who stabbed this woman can be tried for murder. If it dies whilst still in the womb, then he cannot be tried.

Medically, I believe it's at around the 20th week of development that a foetus is considered a living being. I'm not entirely sure but from what I can see, anything before this point is considered for abortion. Effectively, until the point in which the developing foetus is able to be born and survive on it's own an abortion is medically allowed.

Just looking at it from a legal point of view abortion is not murder. From a medical point of view, anything before the foetus can survive on it's own outside of the mother is within good cause for abortion. It isn't alive before this point.

[donnymaniac]

Yes, but that's not weakness. That's the only solution, sadly.


Why dont you suicide? You ll be one less human(crap as you call it) to the world, and the world would be saved when you do so.

Seriously man, people in germany should have all suicided, because hitler was too much of a tyrant and at those times it seemed like hitler would eat the world alive, we should have all given up/suicided/or waited for hitler to fall apart by himself. But wait, thats not what happened, THERE WERE PEOPLE who brought up a change, and there will always be ones.
Japan should have given up, AND suicided or watched theyr country fall apart, because it lost an entire city when America boomed it, but it didnt, instead they rose up again, and they are on the top, everything related to electronics=japan. (Almost)

You know what, i should just give up on my life, and watch it self destruct or kill myself just because almost nothing happened the way I wanted it to.

Am not trying to offend you, and if it looks like it am sorry.
Anyways Be responsible for your actions, and if you don't want a baby, dont have sex or use protection.

[Cromell]

Yes, lets lay down and wait for death. A brilliant attitude.

As I said already: we will not reach agreement. I am unable to agree with your reasoning - I see it as flawed as you believe the world is. It is flawed in its very core as it only sees one side of the matter, totally ignoring anything else.

[Shadowed Luminous]

Excuse me for asking, but what possible purpose do you have for living ? Unless your some manner of intelligent monkey, or an alien, you are one of the parasites you hate.

I'm not sure if you realize how absolutely shattered our world is. The only good possible solution for the earth is to dismantle everything, let all industry die, let all humans who run those industries die, let all the humans who teach people that running industry is productive for the future of the earth die, and watch everyone die. Humans are parasites. They destroy to reap what their curious minds so desire. My philosophy is I don't care anymore. But I'm not bringing one more damn person into the world. It's needless and if I don't want to raise it, I'll expel it from the body its feeding off of.

Nonsense

I won't argue on the matter of some peoples lack of decency but your way is the "Only way" ? The end of everything would be the end of evil, and it's the end of everything else thats halfway decent.

You seem to think that man has no right to live , Why ?

You seem tothink that manshould be forbidden to do certain things , why ?

Everything humans do is harmful right ? How are you getting the money for the internet that your using right now ? Your harming the planet!

Why single out humans ? Why not annihlate the planet itself ? Because all the precious little animals and plants are special ?

I understand that you may claim that animals and plants do not do anything harmful, but seeing as you feel like claiming all humans are evil , I think I can claim that other organisms deserve to be wiped out as well. Both positions have the same amount of credibility .

Cry harder. Way to bleed all over the place. Boohoo, I'm a killing machine who doesn't have any feeling or mentality to determine what's wrong or right. Step up on your podium and shoot me.

From what you've said, you are

Or am I not understanding you my dear human parasite? Are you the only good human ? If you are , then at least one human does not fit your theory . If their is at least one goof human, what makes you so special ?

[Sylvie]

I realize I'm one too. Can't do anything about it, but I'm a misanthropist. It doesn't make sense, but that's what I am.

[mamatz]

I'm done defending myself. If you have hope for mankind, you're stupid. We're going to keep synthesizing ourselves until nothing is left. Mankind destroys itself to 'progress', as most would say. Industry will be the death of us.

The way you said that like yov already know about the future that we'll all die because of industry... How'd you know? Can you go to the future? Oh I forgot, you're a 'killing machine', a machine that can kill living being and go to the future....

[Ryojin]

Here's an idea: Let's get back to the topic of abortion, not whether or not the human race is doomed, okay?

[Cromell]

Here's an idea: Let's get back to the topic of abortion, not whether or not the human race is doomed, okay?

It seems it was somewhat related, due to the variety of reasons one would support abortion. Some people want it to equalize rights of men and women, others find abortion to be a way to destroy humankind XD

"SSDD" (Dreamcatcher, S. King)

[BreatheDeep]

If the girl wants to destroy/get rid of said fetus then she should after all its her body and we really don't have a say so in the matter after all I'm pro choice and if the girl wants to raise the child so be it if no do away with it when you can.

[Tsuki no Hana]

Abortion is an iffy issue.. I honestly couldn't say what I would do if I got knocked up and it was unwanted ((Not likely to happen).

on one hand, I think abortion is wrong, but on the other hand, there's so many situations out there were abortion may be the the best way to go (mother having health issues) :\

[Shadowed Luminous]

If the girl wants to destroy/get rid of said fetus then she should after all its her body and we really don't have a say so in the matter after all I'm pro choice and if the girl wants to raise the child so be it if no do away with it when you can.

Except the child they helped create, or the father of the child since they all happen to be involved . She chose to take on the burden in her body when she decided to break down and have relations with some man.

When does "Nobody else get's a say" count in a debate ?


on one hand, I think abortion is wrong, but on the other hand, there's so many situations out there were abortion may be the the best way to go (mother having health issues) :\

OK , one possibly valid reason, where are the other "Many" reasons.